I don't understand people reinventing macro-based hacks in C to achieve what was achieved in other languages many years ago. Why not using C++, for example? It's available almost everywhere, introducing its usage in an existing C codebase is pretty simple. Sure, C++ has its own downsides, but is it better to create mess with macros in C rather then using exiting language facilities and standard library containers provided by C++?
Its rather hard to introduce c++ into legacy c projects. You basically have to decide on a subset of features to use, and then you'll have to explain to the teams why the same looking code now takes 10x more compute to build.
Usually the way we do it here is we honor some interface then rewrite the subsystem in c++.
And then there's the real hurdle and that is getting the c++ idiom correct as it is very easy to just open the floodgates and let everyone write code that looks vastly different.
Having used C++ a lot in the past, I think the mess in C++ is way worse. I also contribute to projects that introduce C++ into a C code base, and I really wish they hadn't done this.
Although there are C features I like that I would need to remove before introducing C++ to a codebase, so this may not always be so simple.
What is mess in C++? Yes, it has some shady parts and is more complex than C, but this complexity provides expressiveness and type safety. And you can always use only features from C++ you find useful.
> also contribute to projects that introduce C++ into a C code base, and I really wish they hadn't done this.
What is problematic in these projects other than unfamiliarity of C++ for developers previously used only C?
How do you make a shallow copy of an object in C++, how do you do the same thing in C? Knowing I can just memcpy _any_ struct in C and have a valid shallow copy is pretty huge.
How do you create a stable ABI in C++? How do you make one in C? In C, knowing that all my exported functions will mostly just work and be stable as long as I don’t change the interface is also huge and allows you to create cross language bindings pretty trivially.
For one reason, it is because C++ runtime (and its standard library) is a whole own can of worms which most people would rather not touch if they can afford to. Which they mostly can.
> Sure, C++ has its own downsides
"Sure, getting your eyes gouged out has its downsides, but is it better to read that awful mess of macros in C instead?" The answer most people would give to this question may surprise you.
Here we go again. Yes there are bad parts in the C++ standard library and there are good parts. But if you are just trying to do type safe generic data structures you are unlikely to touch the bad parts. Many codebases forbids parts of the standard library, e.g. LLVM forbids including <iostream>. You can forbid using parts of the standard library too.
> Yes there are bad parts in the C++ standard library and there are good parts.
Okay, other than <vector>, what are the good parts? Because as the sibling comments rightfully point out, migrating your codebase from C to C++ just to be able to use <vector> is not worth it.
The <map> is a sad joke played upon the C++ programmers by the standard committee.
Exactly, and a simple usable string type is just a struct MyString { char *buf; size_t len; }; away. Actual magic is in how you use it, where you allocate it, how you integrate allocation and formatting and logging and I/O... i.e. all the things that aren't solved by crufty complex std::string either.
It's a slow generic data structure with an unintuitive API. You can use it for leetcode or for CRUD. For anything more demanding it's horrifically bloated and bad. std::string too. Whenever you see STL datatypes like even string and map, you have to deal with RAII, implicit allocations, weird operator syntax, unexpected mutation (invalidation) and so on.
(Spporting or even encouraging destructive mutation, and by this I mean not incrementing counters or anything harmless but allowing iterator invalidations and crashes, are also why std::vector is bad in my opinion, these are idiomatic APIs for 90s and 2000s programming, which we should know better to avoid in 2026).
> For anything more demanding it's horrifically bloated and bad
C++ containers are designed for average demands. If you need something more specific, you can always use an alternative implementation. And it's better than messing with macros in pure C.
> you have to deal with RAII
What's problematic with it?
> implicit allocations
Allocations aren't implicit. It's usually clear from the documentation where allocation takes place (like in concatenating strings or copying strings).
> unexpected mutation (invalidation)
It's not the case with standard library containers. Mutating methods aren't const-qualified, so that it's clear where mutation can take place. And in C++ it's strictly recommended to mark as const everything in regular user code which shouldn't be mutated.
> C++ containers are designed for average demands. If you need something more specific, you can always use an alternative implementation.
As someone who has been programming exclusively in C/C++ for a long time -- the biggest selling point for these languages in 2026 is exactly being suited to doing something specific, not generic.
> Allocations aren't implicit
std::map<int,int> m;
m[1] = 42; // implicit alloc
auto m2 = m; // implicit too
> in C++ it's strictly recommended to mark as const everything in regular user code which shouldn't be mutated.
Theory and practice. Making everything const correct is too painful in practice, often impossible. It's a trap for bean counters that can't focus on getting some actual useful work done. I'm being harsh to my own past self here. Counter question: why include allocation mechanics with some existing data that never gets changed? Why should we have to add much more boilerplate to get the simpler thing?
So what? You like <vector>, and make it the only allowed include. Write all other type safe generic data structures by hand using C++ syntax. Problem solved.
In my personal opinion, the fix[1] for that issue clearly implicates C-style habits polluting a C++ code base. No right-thinking knower of C++ initializes objects with memset! Also I believe that -Wall would have flagged that, and I know for certain that cppcoreguidelines-init-variables + cppcoreguidelines-pro-type-member-init would have flagged it.
I wrote a summarizing article on type safe container types a while back, but
with some C23 specific changes and a few tweaks to work better for complex types.
It's somewhat of a forced trick nowadays, I think.
I actually thought from the title before I read the article that it was going to use _Generic, as in something like _Generic((item),__typeof__((list)->payload):...) .
It's not worth it. The value of C is in compatibility, availability of compilers, and familiarity.
As soon as you change anything in a breaking way, start requiring your own compiler/transpiler, or introduce new idioms, you end up losing the things that keep C alive.
Users of C either like it exactly the way it is, or have to use a specific C version due to a vendor dependency or compliance.
An upgraded C not approved by the standards body gives you yet another niche language that is not C, but is still burdened with its old flaws.
I really don't understand why people bring up other languages when one is discussing implementation of some "advanced/tricky/hackish/new" features in C. It is not as if the implementer does not know about the ease of availability in other languages but there is always some set of criteria which prevents switching to a new language.
On a related note, there is a dearth of written/learning material (books etc.) cataloging and explaining advanced architecture/design/implementation patterns in C though we know they exist in the tons of industrial-strength codebases out there.
There is also the fact that when you see an implementation in C of some feature from another language you better understand language design pragmatics eg. implementing inheritance and virtual functions in C gives you insight into how they work in C++/Java/C#/etc.
It would be nice to have something like C which was very much like C and Pascal (not the syntax) but which was basically C except no naked pointers by default etc, fewer footguns, but which would generate C.
I am working on a language that was C with extensions, transpiled to plain C, but the C syntax is kinda not great to work with (stuff like needing type tables and unbounded lookahead). At the point you clean up the syntax, you're not really C with extensions anymore.
I do not get the connection with a VLA in this context, but if you need a VLA, by all means use it. It is basically always better than the alternative.
I see. This array of unknown length at the end of a struct is called a flexible array member and not a variable length array (although it also refers to an array of variable length it is a different language feature).
VLAs are supported by basically all modern C compilers though, and I do not think adding them was a mistake (I certainly use them a lot!). They got a bad reputation due to stack clash attacks, but in the past some compilers did not implement stack probing (clang was very late). But this was fixed a decade ago.
You definitely should add a detailed post on your "DrC" compiler/interpreter; usecase, scope, techniques used etc. Since this is looking forward to C2y/C29 with some more extensions, i think people will enjoy playing with it in the REPL format.
Lol at some point just implement a small compiler in C… reflection is kinda a hilarious thing to have like I understand the use case for generics, since it's not that that that hard to do with macros and quite commonly wished for
The difference between me and you is that I do not usually post under C++ articles something negative about C++. Instead I respect that people interested in C++ may have their own reasons. For some reason you find it appropriate to post something negative under each C article.
I could tolerate it if it were at least some interesting criticism,.
I've tried doing this for a few years and it just sucks ass. Just use c++ and templates if you need proper generic data structures. C is a defective language.
Usually the way we do it here is we honor some interface then rewrite the subsystem in c++.
And then there's the real hurdle and that is getting the c++ idiom correct as it is very easy to just open the floodgates and let everyone write code that looks vastly different.
Although there are C features I like that I would need to remove before introducing C++ to a codebase, so this may not always be so simple.
What is mess in C++? Yes, it has some shady parts and is more complex than C, but this complexity provides expressiveness and type safety. And you can always use only features from C++ you find useful.
> also contribute to projects that introduce C++ into a C code base, and I really wish they hadn't done this.
What is problematic in these projects other than unfamiliarity of C++ for developers previously used only C?
Just a couple examples:
How do you make a shallow copy of an object in C++, how do you do the same thing in C? Knowing I can just memcpy _any_ struct in C and have a valid shallow copy is pretty huge.
How do you create a stable ABI in C++? How do you make one in C? In C, knowing that all my exported functions will mostly just work and be stable as long as I don’t change the interface is also huge and allows you to create cross language bindings pretty trivially.
Ah, the old "programmers just need to be more disciplined when using C++".
Yeah, C programmers have never seen that argument before...
> Sure, C++ has its own downsides
"Sure, getting your eyes gouged out has its downsides, but is it better to read that awful mess of macros in C instead?" The answer most people would give to this question may surprise you.
Okay, other than <vector>, what are the good parts? Because as the sibling comments rightfully point out, migrating your codebase from C to C++ just to be able to use <vector> is not worth it.
The <map> is a sad joke played upon the C++ programmers by the standard committee.
<map> does the work just fine, not everyone has winning microbenchmarks as part of their daily work.
It has a rather weird interface, at least until C++ 17 when some of the deficiencies were patched somewhat.
(Spporting or even encouraging destructive mutation, and by this I mean not incrementing counters or anything harmless but allowing iterator invalidations and crashes, are also why std::vector is bad in my opinion, these are idiomatic APIs for 90s and 2000s programming, which we should know better to avoid in 2026).
C++ containers are designed for average demands. If you need something more specific, you can always use an alternative implementation. And it's better than messing with macros in pure C.
> you have to deal with RAII
What's problematic with it?
> implicit allocations
Allocations aren't implicit. It's usually clear from the documentation where allocation takes place (like in concatenating strings or copying strings).
> unexpected mutation (invalidation)
It's not the case with standard library containers. Mutating methods aren't const-qualified, so that it's clear where mutation can take place. And in C++ it's strictly recommended to mark as const everything in regular user code which shouldn't be mutated.
As someone who has been programming exclusively in C/C++ for a long time -- the biggest selling point for these languages in 2026 is exactly being suited to doing something specific, not generic.
> Allocations aren't implicit
> in C++ it's strictly recommended to mark as const everything in regular user code which shouldn't be mutated.Theory and practice. Making everything const correct is too painful in practice, often impossible. It's a trap for bean counters that can't focus on getting some actual useful work done. I'm being harsh to my own past self here. Counter question: why include allocation mechanics with some existing data that never gets changed? Why should we have to add much more boilerplate to get the simpler thing?
If you find that RAII is a problem, I pity how poor a programmer you must be...
Also std::start_lifetime_at is a hack and ive seen nobody using it in all the placed where it aught to be used.
If optimizing based on object lifetimes could be turned off, itd be turned off everywhere for hardening like strict aliasing is.
1: https://github.com/llvm/llvm-project/commit/905a88b923433eb8...
https://louissven.xyz/article/how_I_do_container_types_in_C....
Feel free to flag/delete if this isn't the place.
It is really nice that you studied both Martin Uecker and Daniel Hooper's techniques and tweaked them to suit your ideas/taste.
Still feels a bit like a party trick, but if it works...
I actually thought from the title before I read the article that it was going to use _Generic, as in something like _Generic((item),__typeof__((list)->payload):...) .
just as was done with C++?
As soon as you change anything in a breaking way, start requiring your own compiler/transpiler, or introduce new idioms, you end up losing the things that keep C alive.
Users of C either like it exactly the way it is, or have to use a specific C version due to a vendor dependency or compliance.
An upgraded C not approved by the standards body gives you yet another niche language that is not C, but is still burdened with its old flaws.
I really don't understand why people bring up other languages when one is discussing implementation of some "advanced/tricky/hackish/new" features in C. It is not as if the implementer does not know about the ease of availability in other languages but there is always some set of criteria which prevents switching to a new language.
On a related note, there is a dearth of written/learning material (books etc.) cataloging and explaining advanced architecture/design/implementation patterns in C though we know they exist in the tons of industrial-strength codebases out there.
There is also the fact that when you see an implementation in C of some feature from another language you better understand language design pragmatics eg. implementing inheritance and virtual functions in C gives you insight into how they work in C++/Java/C#/etc.
The article uses a struct with a VLA as the last element.
Flexible array members don’t allocate a dynamic amount of memory on the stack.
He also has other interesting C techniques, namely;
Adding reflection to C - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49964525
_Generic for Type Reification in C - https://www.davidpriver.com/creification.html
See also his C2y interpreter with REPL named "DrC" for the upcoming C29 standard (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C29_(C_standard_revision)) - https://github.com/drpriver/drc
PS: I really like his style of writing and presentation; concise and precise without unnecessary fluff and page beautifying.
I also posted your "Adding Reflection to C" at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49964525 and hope HN picks up on it and has a decent discussion.
You definitely should add a detailed post on your "DrC" compiler/interpreter; usecase, scope, techniques used etc. Since this is looking forward to C2y/C29 with some more extensions, i think people will enjoy playing with it in the REPL format.
https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n3531.txt
But if you compare some C++ template container to a C macro solution, I also do not find the macro solution to be more complex.
We will keep on agreeing to disagree.
I could tolerate it if it were at least some interesting criticism,.
Examples: https://godbolt.org/z/hecqs78xs https://godbolt.org/z/YnrcjKrEn
Not perfect, but also not really inferior to C++ in my opinion.